A wonderful interview by two of the most influential people in tarot today.

Jean-Claude Flornoy has been restoring historical decks for many years now, and with the release of the 78 card Jean Dodal Tarot, another product of a master cardmaker is finally available to tarot enthusiasts.

Enrique Enriquez is one of the most notable writers on the 21st century uses of tarot. He wrote part of the introduction to the new Flornoy Dodal, and here interviews Jean-Claude in a perceptive and surprising interview.

Enjoy…

http://www.tarot-history.com/Enrique-Enriquez/pages/itw-EE-15-02-2010-eng.html

Jean Dodal Tarot by Jean-Claude Flornoy

It’s almost here!

I’ve spoken with the Flornoys, and am pleased to share that the printing has been a great success and we are now in the final stages of completion before the new Jean Dodal 78-Card version by Jean-Claude Flornoy is available!

I’m terribly excited about this.

As some of you know, I was to be asked to help design the box for the deck, and Roxanne Flornoy told me today that she is sending me a sheet of the unfolded box, along with some uncut sheets from the deck, so I’ll finally get to see the cards all of their glory. :-bd

I’m not positive, but it feels like they’ve been working on it since just after they finished the Noblet, so that’s almost two years now? I’m sure everyone who owns one of their decks can confirm that one of the hallmarks of their work is the painstaking attention to detail and their authenticity, and I know that the time has been well spent making sure that this restoration of the Jean Dodal sets the standard at the highest level.

Here’s a sneak peek at the box, although the colours will have been perfected at the time of press, so enjoy… with caution.

This is the closest relative the to the Jean Noblet tarot, they are obviously related, possibly one a copy of the other or more likely based on a similar source.  There are details on the Heri deck that I find fascinating, but all I have to work with is this poor quality scan. If anyone can help me out with better versions of the François Heri, I would be very grateful!

The Triumph of Love

The Triumph of Chastity

The Triumph of Death

The Triumph of Fame

The Triumph of Time

The Triumph of Eternity

I think three are easy to match, (here with the “Charles VI Tarot” from the 15th century).

The Triumph of Love with “Love” (or sometimes called “The Lovers”).

The Triumph of Death with “Death” from the Tarot.

The Triumph of Time with “Time” (or sometimes called “The Hermit”) from the Tarot.

By the way, I’m not necessarily trying to match these two sets of images graphically (although by nature there would be some similarity) as much as generally associating the iconography and concept.

Let’s consider matching The Triumph of Eternity with “Judgement”:

Generally, I think this is a pretty good match. It’s easy enough for me to see how “Eternity” would be expressed with the image of the dead rising from the graves on Judgement Day. If we go with this, then I would suggest that The Triumph of Fame would probably be a good match for “The World”:

In this case, the iconography does strike me as somewhat similar, certainly there is something about the posture of the main characters that feels related.

Overall, matching Eternity with Judgement and Fame with The World feels pretty good to me, and I generally feel comfortable suggesting this. Today when I was looking at the image of The Triumph of Eternity shown in this post (there are many, many other versions, just google “Triumph of Eternity”), I realised that this image actually reminded me a little of The World as seen on the Marselle Tarot. This time, I’ll set the image next to the Jean Noblet Tarot from 1650:

The most striking similarity is the inclusion of “the four evangelists“: the Eagle representing St. John, the Bull representing St. Luke, the Lion representing St. Mark, and the Angel representing St. Matthew. There is also some conjecture if the figure on the Marselle Tarot World card might, in some early decks (like the Jean Noblet, Jean Dodal and Jean Payen), might be a representation of Christ. In the Jacques Vieville tarot from Paris, 1650, the figure is even more masculine and most notably has a halo:

So, maybe the Triumph of Eternity is better matched with The World? I think many people would agree. The Triumph of Eternity is the last in the series Triumphs, just as The World is the last in the series of Tarot trumps.

What can we make of Fame then? The most obvious card to assign to The Triumph of Fame would most likely be “The Chariot”, which was also called “The Triumphal Chariot” in early references to the card. Let’s look at this pair:

[singlepic id=33 w=225 h=600 float=]

This image of The Chariot from “Charles VI Tarot” shows what appears to be a war hero dresssed in armor,  carrying a battle  with sword at side. It’s not much of a match visually to the triumph of Fame, I think substantially less so than the match between Fame and The World card. Yet, conceptually it is a pretty good match with the war hero returning home triumphant and we can assume, famous.

My dissatisfaction with this arrangement is that I want to “use” The Chariot elsewhere… I want to match it to the Triumph of Chastity. For this, I’m going to use The Chariot from the “Cary-Yale Visconti” Tarot dated to the mid-1400s.

Several other early decks feature a woman in the Chariot, but  the person is quite changable, through time portrayed as Venus, Mars, Mercury and others. One reason to like this arrangement is that The Chariot almost always follows Love, just as Chastity triumphs Love. To be honest though, when comparing this image with the Triumph of Fame, I’m back to thinking that they might make a better match after all:

No matter how I arrange the cards, I never get a completely satisfactory match. If I were going to suggest a combination, for me the most successful one would be:

The Triumph of Love with The Lovers

The Triumph of Chastity with The Chariot

The Triumph of Death with Death

The Triumph of Fame with The World

The Triumph of Time with Time

The Triumph of Eternity with Judgement

What do you think?

~~~

Please feel free to comment below, or join the thread to discuss this in the Tarot History Forum.

It is generally accepted that this one of a kind deck was originally published in the early 1600s. If this is correct, it would mean that it is older than any existing Tarot de Marseille (TdM), (the Jean Noblet Tarot is dated to around 1650, and the Jean Dodal to the early 1700s). Of course, the Cary Sheet indicates that, (at least elements of), the TdM style has been around since around 1500. The Tarot de Paris is usually considered the oldest existing deck that still contains all 78 original cards.

The Tarot de Paris (TdP) follows the numbering of the TdM, and like the TdM has titles and numbers printed on the cards. Some of the cards are clearly related to the TdM, but many have unique designs or are related to other decks. In some ways, the deck reminds me of the Jacques Vieville, it has a crude and wild streak, but sometimes the artwork is incredibly rich and beautiful. Some of the detail in the facsimile version published by Grimaud in 1985 is difficult to see clearly as the colours used in the original have darkened obscuring some of the lines and making some of the artwork difficult to decipher.

An excellent summary of the deck exists on Andy’s Playing Cards. I’d like to take it a step further and discuss some of the details. This is one of the most important of our early decks, and one of the least known and discussed. Unfortunately, the deck is very difficult to find now, although copies can still be found occasionally on ebay.

Here are the 22 Trumps to enjoy, let’s explore this treasure together in the Tarot History Forum.

View as slideshow

I think it really might be the most beautiful deck in the world. Ever time I look through it I’m simply astonished by its delicacy and grace. I also love the mix of simplicity in presentation and incredible detail.

I can understand why this deck isn’t more popular. It’s “non-traditional”. To begin with it is a “Tarocchino”, a deck that has the 2-5 pips removed. Also, being a deck from Bologna, the “Popes” are different than the more common tarot decks. Instead of a Popess, Empress, Emperor, and Pope, we have a Bearded Emperor, Emperor, Seated Pope, and Standing Pope.

Other subjects are non-traditional as well.

The Bateleur is a street performer; The Lovers is shown with just Cupid, or “Love”; The Chariot has a seated Venus; “The Hermit” here is the older subject of “Time”; rather than a Hanged Man, we have a very scary Traitor; The Devil has no minions; “The Tower” goes by it’s old subject of The Lightening; a rag picker searches (with lantern!) under The Star; Diana is The Moon; Apollo The Sun; Atlas The World; and finally, instead of “Judgement” we have the older subject of “The Angel”.

For me, these unusual subjects have a very natural feeling to them. I really like the “classical” feel of this deck. I like the elegance and nobility of the characters. Somehow, I feel less distracted when looking at the subjects than I do with any other deck that comes to mind.

Yet, the deck is very detailed. Every card is so lovingly crafted, there is an abundance of detail to savor. This is true for the pips as well.

There is so much to explore in this deck, I think it’s very worthy of a good discussion.

I’ve placed the entire deck here for you to view: http://www.tarothistory.com/mitelli.html

Please join me in exploring the iconography of this treasure. What do you like? How do your thoughts when viewing these images differ from when viewing more traditional tarots? What details do you find interesting? What do you think of some of the choices Mitelli made?

The discussion on this deck is on the Tarot Forum: http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=79

I’ve mentioned it before elsewhere, but I think it’s worth bringing up again. Let’s take a look at the Lovers card from the Jean Noblet Tarot, (Paris, 1650):

Notice the area that contains the cupid? The shape of this area has always bothered me. It seems erratically drawn, why isn’t the shape more circular or evenly distributed?

We find a similar design on the Jean Dodal Tarot, (Lyon, early 1700s):

The Dodal strikes me as less odd, but still somewhat strange.

I would have left it at this, but noticed something very interesting one day when examining a set of cards illustrated in Kaplan’s Encyclopedia of Tarot, Volume II.

The deck that caught my eye was one created by François Heri, a Tarot of Besançon style deck (where the Pope and Popess are replaced with Jupiter and Juno). Like the Jean Dodal Tarot, it was created sometime in the early 1700s. This deck is particularly interesting because it is the only deck I have ever encountered which is similar in proportion to the Jean Noblet Tarot. The deck is shorter and wider in proportion to other Besançon decks just as the Noblet shows the same relationship to other Marseille tarots. The two are obviously related somehow. There are little differences on nearly every card, most of these of a typical Besançon style; (as an example, the Devil is slightly different than in Marseille Tarots, he has hairy legs and his minions are shown in profile).

Because the Heri and the Noblet are so similar, I find it very exciting to compare where they “agree” iconographically, and where they differ. Unfortunately, I’ve only the enlarged black and white images from the Encyclopedia to use for comparison; but it is the best that I have at this time to work with. It was in such a comparison that I first noticed a striking difference between the Heri and the Noblet on the Lovers. The Heri has clouds about the Lovers.

For me, the Heri depiction makes much more sense.

And that’s odd because in almost every way, the Heri is a generally cruder. Why would Heri add the clouds?

Perhaps the answer is that the clouds are just a typical detail that appears in the Besançon decks, but not in the Marseille decks? It’s true they do appear on other Besançon decks. Here for example is the Marseille Tarot by Jean Dodal, and the Besançon Tarot by J.B. Benois:

Notice how poorly the wings of the cupid are drawn on the Jean Dodal; and also the way the upper leg is disconnected from the body? Even though the Jean Dodal is the older of the pair, again I feel that the Besançon Tarot makes more “sense”. It’s interesting as well to note that both the Heri and the Benois Besançon Tarots follow the same “TdM I” style exemplified by Noblet and Dodal. Even the character’s feet which are missing from the Dodal are also missing on the Benois.

The “TdM II” style associated with the François Chosson and Nicholas Conver portrays the Lovers card very differently. Here is the François Chosson:

Here the Cupid is reversed and without a blindfold, the feel is entirely different.

I’m not sure what to make of this. I’m inclined to think that the card “should” have the clouds on it. The depiction in the Besançon Tarots makes more “visual sense” to me than their cousins in the Marseille Tarots.

To be fair, it’s very possible that when the Besançon style was first being developed, a cardmaker also felt that the cupid could be improved and redesigned the Marseille card to have the clouds.

I’m not so sure though.

I’m more inclined to think that the Besançon Tarots “retain” a feature that probably existed in early Marseille decks, but was “lost” in the Marseille “bloodline” by the time of the Noblet.

There is another possibility that I have been considering ever since I first noticed this years ago. Is it possible that the Noblet and the Dodal are actually modified Besançon Tarots, adapted to meet the style of the Marseille? Is the “TdM I” really a modified Besancon to take on traits of the “TdM II”? I think it unlikely, but worth mentioning.

What do you think? Are there clouds above the Lovers?

Feel free to comment here, or join a discussion on the topic in the Tarot History Forum.

My very good friend “jmd” joins me in welcoming interested visitors to take a look around the forum and to consider joining if it appeals to you.

We’ve used a “club” metaphor because the idea of a plush place where those interested in Tarot History could gather, wander through rooms filled with books and documents, or just kick back with a sherry by the fire for some friendly conversation seemed, well, appealing and fun.

Most of the “rooms” are open to guests for viewing, but registration is required to join the conversations or start new ones. Thare are also a few “private” rooms reserved just for registered members.

We expect that the forum will remain a rather small group. We’ve tried to create a welcoming, friendly atmosphere to discuss Tarot History with friends; if that’s appealing to you, we’ll be pleased to see you there.

Tarot History Forum

The BnF had this description (in French)

cote cliché: RC-C-01562
légende: Cartes à jouer : coupes, points et figures
département: Estampes et photographie
cote du document: RES KH-167 (367)-BOITE 8
partie de: Jeu de cartes
folio, pagination: Numéro 367
catégorie: Estampes
descripteur(s): jeu de cartes

This description doesn’t seem to reveal much other than that they are a “game of cards”.

I noticed immediately that the cards were related the the Jacques Vieville tarot, and the “Belgian Tarot”.

A good example of the Belgian Tarot pattern is the deck referred to as the “Bacchus Tarot”, or “Vandenborre Bacchus Tarot”, published by Carta Mundi/US Games.

The Belgian Tarot is thought to be a split from the Marseille Tarot, probably sometime in the 17th Century. Some consider the Jacques Vieville Tarot to be an ancestor, or classify the Vieville itself as a Belgian Tarot. With the Vieville dating, we know that most of the iconography of the pattern was set by the mid-1600s. The Belgian Tarot pattern is notable for replacing the Popess and Pope with, respectively, “Bacchus” and the “Spanish Captain Fracasse” (a figure from the Commedia dell’arte). The Tower has been replaced with “Lightening”, showing a shepard taking shelter under a tree. Other cards like the Sun, Moon, Star, and World also have distinctive features. The Vieville could be considered a mix of the Marseille tarot and the Belgian tarot as it has most of the iconography of the Belgian pattern, yet maintains the Pope and Popess of traditional Tarot.

You can read more about the Belgian Tarot on Andys Playing Cards and The Tarot Hermit.

Let’s look at the similarities of these decks.

The King of Coins

Jacques Vieville Tarot, Unknown BnF Belgian Tarot, Bacchus Belgian Tarot

Like the Vieville, the BnF image is untitled. The Bacchus cardmaker obviously placed the title on top of the existing image, practically obstructing the underlying image.

Most surprising to me is that the king seems to have lost part of his crown. I posted last week about the crowns of the Jacques Vieville Tarot, and my curiosity to discover if such crowns have ever actually existed, or whether they could be traced in art history. Even the Marseille Tarots show some form of hat coming out from the sides. Like so many other old tarot cards, the trend often seems to simplify; to remove detail. The Marseille decks that still exist do not show the top of the throne on the King of Cups, yet I suspect that, like the Belgian pattern, older, now lost versions of the Marseille Tarot probably also showed the top of the throne, but it was lost to “simplification”. For example, here is the King of Cups from the Jean Noblet Tarot:

The BnF Belgian seems to indicate fur on the kings trim, as does the Bacchus. I imagine this is to imply ermine fur, which carried the connotation of purity, and was often represented on royalty.

It’s also interesting to see the wall under the king’s leg replacing the throne and pillow on the Vieville.

It’s possible that the BnF and the Bacchus have reinterpreted the underside of the kings coat to be a pillow that he sits upon.

The Knight of Cups

Jacques Vieville Tarot, Unknown BnF Belgian Tarot, Bacchus Belgian Tarot

These images are all very similar. The coat with open sleeves and clasp, the spurs, the long hair; the Knight remains consistent. The horse changes slightly in the BnF version, rising higher off the ground; possibly due to the relatively small width of the card. The fringe on the covering of the Vieville Tarot horse is square, the others show a rounded trim.

The Valet of Cups

Jacques Vieville Tarot, Unknown BnF Belgian Tarot, Bacchus Belgian Tarot

The most obvious difference in the three depictions of the Valet of Cups is the different hats worn by the valets. It’s possible that all three indicate a chain of flowers worn around the brim. The Jacques Vieville Tarot cuts off the top of what appears to be a rather “fluffy” hat. The BnF Belgian Tarot only shows what appears to be a headband, but also has a distinct plume. The Bacchus Belgian Tarot is difficult to discern; some sort of at, possibly with feathers, is indicated.

Another clear difference is that while the BnF Valet seems to be standing still, with feet pointing in opposing directions, the Vieville and Bacchus seem to indicate movement, as if the valet is walking.

All three show an open cup in the Valet’s left hand, and the lid to the cup in the right. Typically, the Jacques Vieville Tarot shows the most detail of the three.

Beautiful Pips

What really struck me when looking at this group of cards was how beautiful the pips are. I’ve never seen any pips quite like these. The engraver put a lot of effort into the decoration of the pips, cards that often feel like a nessarary afterthought on so many decks. Instead, these cards show great detail in the ornamentation.

Ace of Cups
Jacques Vieville Tarot, Unknown BnF Belgian Tarot, Besançon Tarot (J.B. Benois)

Considering the Ace of Cups, I was struck by the similarity to the Besançon Tarot; another varient of the Marseille Tarot named after the Besançon region of Eastern France. The Jacques Vieville Tarot Ace of Cups is, (not surprisingly considering they were both created in Paris in the 1650s), very similar to the Jean Noblet Marseille Tarot Ace of Cups:

The BnF Belgian is more rounded, as typically portrayed in the Besançon family, (read more about the Besançon Tarot). It also has some organic growths along the bottom sides.

Two of Cups
Jacques Vieville Tarot, Jean Noblet Tarot, Unknown BnF Belgian Tarot

I think this is my favorite card of them all. I’m not sure at all what the tree growing from the pot is supposed to represent, but I sure love it. I think part of the effort was to get the two cups centered on the card to match other iconography, such as the Vieville and the Noblet, shown here; nevertheless, I find this very beautiful. I love how detailed the branches and leaves are on this card, it’s incredible!

Other Pips
Unknown BnF Belgian Tarot

In every way, this is a beautiful set of cards. It has bold and unique style, yet is not really full of surprises; the iconography is basically the same as other decks.

I’d like to know more about this deck. It seems a most unfamiliar and beautiful representation of tarot, truly a gift to us from the past.